| We hope you enjoy your visit. You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. Join our community! If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features: |
| RR Changes; Blegh | |
|---|---|
| Topic Started: Jul 22 2009, 06:01 PM (871 Views) | |
| Septa_kid | Jul 22 2009, 06:01 PM Post #1 |
flxie!!!!
  ![]](http://209.85.48.18/static/1/pip_r.png)
|
SEPTA seeks public input on Regional Rail name changes By Paul Nussbaum Philadelphia Inquirer/Daily News Staff Writer July 22, 2009 Are you ready for a train ride on the Chartreuse Line? Or a trip on the B Train? A journey on the No. 10? How about just a ride on the Paoli Line? SEPTA is considering getting rid of the "R" train route designations it has used for 25 years. The system is confusing for infrequent riders and tourists, general manager Joseph Casey says, and needs to be replaced with something easier to understand. But what? Train lines could be designated by colors. Or final destination points. Or letters. Or numbers. "We're trying to get input from riders and other stakeholders," Casey said after SEPTA officials made their pitch last week to city and county officials, passenger advocates, and others. "We're trying to make it easier to use the system." Opponents of a name change, including top city transportation officials, worry that the new designations would be part of a broader plan to change the way SEPTA operates its trains. Such changes, they say, would undermine the integrated rail network created in 1984 when the Center City tunnel linked the old Pennsylvania and Reading rail lines. SEPTA officials insist that only the names would change; operations would remain the same. Currently, SEPTA's 13 train routes are labeled R1 through R8, except that there is no R4. And there are two different final destinations for each R route, except for the R1 line, the airport branch. For instance, some R3 trains terminate at Media or Elwyn in Delaware County. Other R3s run to West Trenton. Regular commuters know the difference between the R3/Media-Elwyn line and the R3/West Trenton line, but SEPTA says passengers unfamiliar with the system can easily end up on the wrong train. "We get hundreds of complaints each year from people who get on the wrong R5 or the wrong R7," said Byron S. Comati, director of strategic planning and analysis for SEPTA. "There's pretty good agreement that the current system is confusing," said Matthew Mitchell of the Delaware Valley Association of Rail Passengers. "If you hang around a Center City station for 20 minutes, you'll see several people trying to figure out, 'What stairway is my train?' "But there's no one right answer for what to use in place" of the R designators, Mitchell said. One proposal is to return to the nomenclature used in pre-SEPTA days, when Philadelphia trains were operated by the Pennsylvania Railroad and the Reading Co. The routes were designated by their end points: the Chestnut Hill line, the Paoli line, the Trenton line. That's also the system used by many other U.S. commuter rail operations, including those in New Jersey, New York City, and Chicago. Other possibilities include using 13 separate letters or numbers to designate the routes, such as the A line and the B line, or the 10 line and the 12 line. Some have suggested using new R designators, from R1 to R13. Or SEPTA could use 13 color names for the train routes. The lines already have colors associated with them on SEPTA signs and printed schedules: green for the R6, red for the R7, and blue for the R5, for example. But more colors would be needed for both ends of the paired lines, and there could be confusion between SEPTA's subway and trolley color designations (the Broad Street Line is orange, the Market-Frankford Line is blue, and the Subway-Surface Lines are green). The current R designations were created when SEPTA completed the Center City tunnel in 1984, connecting the former Pennsylvania and Reading systems. Instead of terminating at Suburban Station or the Reading Terminal, trains could operate through to the other end of the line. An R7 train could run from Trenton to Chestnut Hill East, for example. But today, most rail trips don't run from one end of a line to the other. Only 33 percent of weekday trips are end-to-end runs, according to SEPTA. Many trains go to Center City, then to a rail yard to be sent out on another line. And 19 percent change R designations as they leave Center City without stopping in a yard. Luther Diggs, chief operations officer, said the proposed changes in route designations would not mean a change in the way trains operate. "What we intended to do 25 years ago and what we actually did are two different things," Diggs said. "We're not changing anything from an operations standpoint." But Christopher Zearfoss, the city's senior transportation project manager, said SEPTA could renumber routes without losing the concept of through service on the rail lines. "The city sponsored the [Center City tunnel] project," Zearfoss said in an e-mail to SEPTA officials and others who attended last Wednesday's meeting. "Our federal and state grant applications justified the project, in part, on achieving 'continuous . . . fully integrated rail service . . . while enhancing the convenience and attractiveness of the system and improving accessibility.' Marginalizing the usefulness of through-[tunnel] travel seems to run counter to these representations made to our federal and state funding agencies." He said nothing would eliminate all passenger confusion. "To paraphrase the Bible, the confused rider you will have always with you," he wrote. "Despite best efforts, there is no foolproof firewall against those riders who are distracted, multi-tasking, hurried, agitated, or just plain careless; they will make mistakes. . . . But that is no pretext for discontinuing those important scheduling practices." Zearfoss suggested assigning 13 separate R numbers to the rail lines, and having the "public timetables continue to highlight the fact that most trains on the two lines are combined and operate through the [Center City tunnel], thereby affording frequent 'suburb-to-suburb' service without change of trains." Vukan R. Vuchic, a University of Pennsylvania transportation professor who was a creator of the R designation system 25 years ago, said SEPTA was making a big mistake in trying to get rid of it. "It is already confusing for passengers, and SEPTA wants to give less information? What kind of logic is that?" Vuchic asked. "They just want the freedom to send their trains as it fits their needs, that's all they're concerned about." Kim Scott Heinle, SEPTA assistant general manager for customer service, emphasized that no decision had been made on the R changes and that SEPTA wanted more input from passengers and other interested parties. "This is a customer-service initiative," Heinle said. "It's all about improving our ability to attract new people to the system. We truly believe that there are a number of folks that get into the system and go where they don't want to go." In a change expected to attract less concern, SEPTA also plans to do away with the Route 100 designation for the rail line that runs between Norristown and 69th Street Terminal in Upper Darby. SEPTA will call it simply the Norristown High-Speed Line, beginning in September. Some passengers still refer to that line as the P&W, in reference to its pre-SEPTA origins as the Philadelphia & Western Railroad. SEPTA officials also plan to color-code all trolley lines green, including the current Green Line subway-surface trolleys in West Philadelphia, the Routes 101 and 102 trolleys that run from 69th Street Terminal to Media and Sharon Hill, and the Route 15 trolley that runs along Girard Avenue. To contact SEPTA about the proposed changes, call customer service at 215-580-7800, or go online at www.septa.com. pnussbaum@phillynews.com source: http://www.nyctransitforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=138140 |
 |
 
|
| Van2006ko | Jul 22 2009, 07:53 PM Post #2 |
Foamer
|
I would just leave everything the way it is, it would be extremely confusing to try and make things "less confusion". KISS, Keep it simple stupid! Or in this case if something is working why on earth would you tempt with it? |
|
|
|
| redarrow5591 | Jul 22 2009, 09:21 PM Post #3 |
Light Rail and Railroad Historian
|
Have you seen what they did to the schedules? The Neshaminy got gutted like a fish midday, every single R5 from either side still terminates at either Powelton or Roberts, and M/E is more thoroughly routed with the Norristown and CHE middays and weekends respectively. |
|
|
|
| TheOneCalledA1 | Jul 22 2009, 10:02 PM Post #4 |
|
Advanced Transit Fan
|
Read http://railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=63650 for more discussion |
|
|
|
| Jayayess1190 | Jul 22 2009, 10:56 PM Post #5 |
Foamer
|
It should be done, how many R5's are there? Thorndale, Paoli, Downingtown, Doylestown, Expresses, Limiteds... For a casual rider or visitor it is confusing. Edited by Jayayess1190, Jul 22 2009, 10:57 PM.
|
|
|
|
| Septa_kid | Jul 23 2009, 12:11 AM Post #6 |
|
flxie!!!!
|
just give them different numbers then, don't rename the entire system, it's pointless and it WILL be confusing for the everyday riders
|
|
|
|
| TransitChuckG | Jul 23 2009, 10:17 AM Post #7 |
|
Foamer
|
I love the Gregg St. sign. The problem is there used to be a Gregg St. up there in the old days but they reconfigured the roads and it's not there any more! It's not on any map and I can't find it. |
|
|
|
| Tritransit Area | Jul 23 2009, 02:16 PM Post #8 |
Transit Enthusiast
|
"What is the Neshaminy Line??????????? Doesn't the R3 go by there?" "Which R3" "There are 2?" "Yeah, there's one that goes to Media/Elwyn, and then the other goes to West Trenton, NJ." "HUH? SEPTA sucks with their confusing system. Just doesn't make any sense - all they do is charge us too much money. They don't care at all about their riders." See the point? The Neshaminy Line - er R3 - er West Trenton line is due to single tracking because of construction work. Apparently the switches are soooooo far apart that they couldn't safely and reliably run the hourly headways. Not sure why they retained the R5 short turns...maybe because of the Main Line construction? |
|
|
|
| Tritransit Area | Jul 23 2009, 02:21 PM Post #9 |
|
Transit Enthusiast
|
It really does NOT work. The R6 is "one line", but how come I am looking at taking the train from Norristown to WILMINGTON on the R2. Also, I've never seen a one car R6 train pulling into Norristown Transpo. Center (and I hope to never see one either, lol). In fact, when was the last time you directed someone (coming from Philadelphia) that all they had to do was take the R5 to Penllyn without the reference "Lansdale/Doylestown". The whole point of the "rebranding" is not to appeal to you, the veteran SEPTA rider who knows the system well enough to get around. The whole point is to make it simpler for the novice/occasional rider who may not understand the whole "interline" issue. The system we have doesn't make sense. Only 1/3 of the trains go from one section of the line, through Center City, and continue on the other section of the SAME line. I've stated this quite a few times before, as well as to the people at SEPTA themselves, to just drop the R's and call them by their destinations. We have to do that anyway, so it shouldn't be that big a deal. DEFINITELY not as big a deal as dropping the route number for one of our favorite lines and calling it something that the public does not commonly know it as...and that is completely downplayed... |
|
|
|
| CACrafter88bk2504 | Jul 23 2009, 02:48 PM Post #10 |
|
Transit Historian
|
I agree. Probably half of the Delaware Valley & more than that number dependent upon the R5 probably refer to the line as the Paoli local. |
|
|
|
| redarrow5591 | Jul 23 2009, 03:01 PM Post #11 |
|
Light Rail and Railroad Historian
|
1) You known me long enough to know I'm a bit of a traditionalist when it comes to names on the railroad, especially when I'm ranting. Besides the OFFICIAL (as in the ETT) name of the WT is the Neshaminy Line, probably since SEPTA's ownership ends at NESH interlocking. 2) AFAIK they're still doing catenary work on the Reading Main near Lansdale, so I'm guessing that's why they're keeping both sides separate for now. AMTRAK's 562 signal installation isn't near Lancaster yet so that won't affect SEPTA for some time. |
|
|
|
| philabob1 | Jul 23 2009, 06:11 PM Post #12 |
Advanced Transit Fan
|
The R6 designation is a problem in that it is two separate lines and any one looking for the Cynwyd side at Market East won't find it. I've been told the R numbers cause confusion but back before the Tunnel the line names caused the same sorts of problems (e.g. three different lines, none called Jenkintown, go through Jenkintown). I've been told the R3 Elwyn (almost called it Media!) and R6 Norristown combo is for the summer only. This has caused problems for many in the midday as the outbounds that called at 30th/Suburbanphilabob1 at :20/:25/:30 now call at :08/:13/:18 and a number of riders going by memory had long waits. Similarly the inbounds are roughly a half-hour off what they used to be. |
|
|
|
| silverliner_2 | Jul 23 2009, 10:17 PM Post #13 |
Cab signal supporter. Railroad engineer. Girl chaser. Transit fan. Totally unpredictable!
|
SEPTA ownership of their two tracks now goes all the way to (CP-Wood, including maintenance of tracks and signals for their two mains), but the line remains the Neshaminy Line. And yes, the catenary project on the Mainline towards Lansdale is why the R5 is still halved with the midday hourly service on the Lansdale side. Once that project is done, the half-hourly through schedules will be restored (supposed to be in September or October). I still have to confirm that they want to increase the passenger train max speeds on the Mainline to 70 between Carmel (Glenside) and Dale (Lansdale) interlockings....last year I was told that was all contingent on completion of the catenary project. |
|
|
|
| Septa_kid | Jul 24 2009, 02:58 PM Post #14 |
|
flxie!!!!
|
i now can understand the R route changes, but the 100-102 need to stay the way they are to stop the confusion! People still call the 101 and 102 by their numbers. I NEVER heard anyone refer to the 102 as "The Sharon Hill Line" so there would be no point to name it that. Now as for the 100 line, some people call it the P &W, some people call it the Noerristown High Speed Line.... but others call it the 100... that will confuse those others if they just straight up change it to "Norristown High Speed Line" because then you would have the people who still call it the 100 being confused Like i said, they might as well change some of the bus routes while they're at it since there are some bus routes that go to different places, yet have the same number. xample: route C goes from Cheltenham Square Mall to City Hall, but it also goes from Fern Rock Terminal to South Philadelphia! Why not change that? |
|
|
|
| Van2006ko | Jul 24 2009, 03:38 PM Post #15 |
|
Foamer
|
Well don't have any contentions about the R-system being revisied or whatever, I'm talking mainly about changing the colors around on several lines and other things which they were proposing... They will be confusing their existing riders... |
|
|
|
| 1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous) | |
| Go to Next Page | |
| « Previous Topic · Regional Rail · Next Topic » |
8:16 PM Nov 23
