Does the 17 really need Artics?

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Does the 17 really need Artics?
Topic Started: Sep 22 2009, 08:10 PM (312 Views)
SouthernSeptaRida215	Sep 22 2009, 08:10 PM Post #1
Southern Depot PTV Co-Leader & Correspondent. Posts: 369 Group: Members Member #2,708 Joined: July 5, 2009	Well lets review the facts first before I state my opinion. Well as we know the Route 17 which runs out of Southern Depot goes from 20th & Johnston to Front-Market, and Front-Market to either 20th & Johnston or Broad & Pattison, and Broad-Phillips(Weekends Only). The route 17 bus is Southern's most heavily traveled route. I don't exactly know the Daily Ridership number on the 17 on a day-to-day basis but I do know the Rt. 17 carries over at least 1000 people a day. I know its not as much as compared to the Route 14, but think about it this way. About after 6:40A.M. every weekday morning the 17 runs at least every 3-4 minutes till 8:00A.M. You would think the 17 would run smooth during Morning Rush but that is not the story. Every morning I take the 17 to school and by the time the 17 I'm on is @ 20th and Federal or Morris it sees a standing load. Also when you hit either Tasker-Morris or Ellsworth-Federal you either catch up to your leader or your follower catches up to you. The result then is that 40-footers on the 17 won't work well anymore especially since that route has seen increased ridership starting since 2007-2008. Also there are times on 20th street where a 17 has to pass a street or two because because their bus is full and it can't take anymore passengers. In April 2009 Septa began investigating the daily ridership on the 17. Their first step in the investigation saw the unusual swap between the Southern & Callowhill. Callowhill sent down some of the Hybrids to Southern in exchange for some 8000s and some Southern Hybrids. The Main idea of this switch was to use the Hybrid's Passenger Counters on the 17 as well as the G & 47. After the month was over the Passenger Counters results were counted, and not Shocking to me the result for Daily Ridership on the Rt. 17 was higher than Septa expected. Their Second Step in the investigation, is starting in the 2009 Fall Schedule you see Septa made the Rt. 17 buses run every 3 minutes during Morning Rush. Although this new schedule seems to be effective you still see 17 buses passing up people for at least 1-2 blocks due to overloaded buses. Septa's possible Step 3 would be sending Artics to run on the 17 only, but it is not official said and done. Even though its not official, there still is a possibility, My solution to this problem would be sending at least 10 Neo Artics to Southern for Route 17 use only. This way at least the 17 can run every three minutes with a mix of Flyer and Snakes to accommodate the Passengers on the 17. I would run this format for Rt. 17 morning rush: Artic, Flyer, Flyer, Artic, Flyer, Flyer, Artic, Flyer, Flyer, Artic......... This way At least the Flyers won't be overloaded with passengers and the Artic would take the majority load making the 17 run smooth. Also here is what happen on 8040 Rt. 17 heading Southbound today, around on 19th & South 8040 had a standing load front & back, 8040 couldn't even accommodate a wheelchair on the bus due to the fact 8040 was loaded with passengers. So what do you think? Does Southern's route 17 really need Neoplan Articulated buses, or does it need to add more service to the 17?



Septa_kid	Sep 22 2009, 10:23 PM Post #2
flxie!!!! Posts: 2,040 Group: Members Member #2,467 Joined: March 31, 2008	the 17 and the C needs em BAAAD!!



SouthernSeptaRida215	Sep 23 2009, 03:53 AM Post #3
Southern Depot PTV Co-Leader & Correspondent. Posts: 369 Group: Members Member #2,708 Joined: July 5, 2009	Septa_kid Sep 22 2009, 10:23 PM the 17 and the C needs em BAAAD!! If da C needs them that much, you would think Midvale would put some of their artics on da C then



Septa_kid	Sep 23 2009, 05:22 AM Post #4
flxie!!!! Posts: 2,040 Group: Members Member #2,467 Joined: March 31, 2008	SouthernSeptaRida215 Sep 23 2009, 03:53 AM Septa_kid Sep 22 2009, 10:23 PM the 17 and the C needs em BAAAD!! If da C needs them that much, you would think Midvale would put some of their artics on da C then they used to, but for some odd reason they stopped



Van2006ko	Sep 23 2009, 06:33 AM Post #5
Foamer Posts: 2,528 Group: Admin Member #1 Joined: February 16, 2005	During the times when I take the route 17, the issue on 20th street is mainly in Center city. Traffic is horrible on 20th street is horrible once you get around South street and coming up. I agree with you, chances are good when it comes to catching up with your leader. The route could seriously use Artics. But Rush hours only, the route 17 is a extremely tricky route when it comes to ridership. I've ridden on the route 17 plenty of times during rush hour and sometimes buses can be anywhere from SRO to just a few people on board. ¿ BTW, what's with the 3 minute headways in one direction, and 6 minutes in the other direction? It looks like every few minutes a bus deadheads back on the expressway back to the start of the route? Edited by Van2006ko, Sep 23 2009, 06:44 AM.



SouthernSeptaRida215	Sep 23 2009, 08:19 AM Post #6
Southern Depot PTV Co-Leader & Correspondent. Posts: 369 Group: Members Member #2,708 Joined: July 5, 2009	Septa_kid Sep 23 2009, 05:22 AM SouthernSeptaRida215 Sep 23 2009, 03:53 AM Septa_kid Sep 22 2009, 10:23 PM the 17 and the C needs em BAAAD!! If da C needs them that much, you would think Midvale would put some of their artics on da C then they used to, but for some odd reason they stopped The reason why Midvale stopped Artics on da C is because they couldn't keep up with the schedule.



Tritransit Area	Sep 23 2009, 10:02 AM Post #7
Transit Enthusiast Posts: 2,242 Group: Admin Member #4 Joined: February 17, 2005	SouthernSeptaRida215 Sep 23 2009, 08:19 AM Septa_kid Sep 23 2009, 05:22 AM SouthernSeptaRida215 Sep 23 2009, 03:53 AM Septa_kid Sep 22 2009, 10:23 PM the 17 and the C needs em BAAAD!! If da C needs them that much, you would think Midvale would put some of their artics on da C then they used to, but for some odd reason they stopped The reason why Midvale stopped Artics on da C is because they couldn't keep up with the schedule. And that's why the 17 can't use our current artics. The artics wouldn't hold to the schedule very well due to the acceleration issues and the huge amount of stops and stop signs. Something needs to be done, though. Perhaps throw more NABIs on the 17 for the time being. NABIs can swallow up a crowd quite well!



Van2006ko	Sep 23 2009, 10:27 AM Post #8
Foamer Posts: 2,528 Group: Admin Member #1 Joined: February 16, 2005	Tritransit Area Sep 23 2009, 10:02 AM SouthernSeptaRida215 Sep 23 2009, 08:19 AM Septa_kid Sep 23 2009, 05:22 AM SouthernSeptaRida215 Sep 23 2009, 03:53 AM Septa_kid Sep 22 2009, 10:23 PM the 17 and the C needs em BAAAD!! If da C needs them that much, you would think Midvale would put some of their artics on da C then they used to, but for some odd reason they stopped The reason why Midvale stopped Artics on da C is because they couldn't keep up with the schedule. And that's why the 17 can't use our current artics. The artics wouldn't hold to the schedule very well due to the acceleration issues and the huge amount of stops and stop signs. Something needs to be done, though. Perhaps throw more NABIs on the 17 for the time being. NABIs can swallow up a crowd quite well! I'd say give them a higher capacity bus so more people can sit versus standing while waiting in the traffic. Hopefully this will result in decreased headways as well which will help this traffic issue. I guess SEPTA should experiment using Artics on routes outside of Comly Midvale and Allegheny. This will tell how reliable the neoplan artics are in keeping the schudule. The route C however, is a different profile of a route. I can see how artics on there would result to not keeping the schedules. More likely they will catch all of the red lights due to their slow acceleration. I've noticed thats the case with slow-programmed hybrids on the 21/44/65.



buswizard	Sep 23 2009, 11:33 AM Post #9
^^^ My sister needs a copy Posts: 1,647 Group: Members Member #2,659 Joined: September 22, 2008	Van2006ko Sep 23 2009, 10:27 AM More likely they will catch all of the red lights due to their slow acceleration. I've noticed thats the case with slow-programmed hybrids on the 21/44/65. That happens all the time on the 6 and 54. i get caught on a crowded artic and stuck at EVERY red light on the route. yes maybe they should experiment with articulated service in other districts. and Southern should start equipping their depot for them NOW should they actually execute this experiment. I had a transit dream last night that they put artics regularly on the 2, 47, 57 and G. As far as acceleration issues, this is probably the reason why Southern is a mostly Cummins depot. Flying buses keep good schedules. And seriously, i think the G may actually need articulated service maybe one to three artics per route. also the...79 perhaps? And if they carry through with artic service on the 17 and it turns out good and they keep schedule, then there may be a ray of hope for the stop-and-go routes 21/42/52 and 10/15 when shuttling is necessary Edited by buswizard, Sep 23 2009, 11:34 AM.



SouthernSeptaRida215	Sep 23 2009, 11:54 AM Post #10
Southern Depot PTV Co-Leader & Correspondent. Posts: 369 Group: Members Member #2,708 Joined: July 5, 2009	Tritransit Area Sep 23 2009, 10:02 AM SouthernSeptaRida215 Sep 23 2009, 08:19 AM Septa_kid Sep 23 2009, 05:22 AM SouthernSeptaRida215 Sep 23 2009, 03:53 AM Septa_kid Sep 22 2009, 10:23 PM the 17 and the C needs em BAAAD!! If da C needs them that much, you would think Midvale would put some of their artics on da C then they used to, but for some odd reason they stopped The reason why Midvale stopped Artics on da C is because they couldn't keep up with the schedule. And that's why the 17 can't use our current artics. The artics wouldn't hold to the schedule very well due to the acceleration issues and the huge amount of stops and stop signs. Something needs to be done, though. Perhaps throw more NABIs on the 17 for the time being. NABIs can swallow up a crowd quite well! As Van said I can understand why Artics on da C was cut because Broad Street is a Main-High Profile street with a traffic light on every street that cuts with it so it does make sense why Artic Service was cut on da C. But on the 17 its a whole different story. How? Well the 17 compared to the C has less traffics lights mainly because 19th & 20th isn't heavily traveled. Also Artics don't have to make hard turns. Maybe the only hard turn I see is when it hits Walnut-Locust SB. So what I think Septa should do is make Midvale send down 5 Artics to Southern to run them on the 17's morning and afternoon rush hour to see if they can keep up with the schedule. They should do this test for two weeks @ most. And have at least 2-3 Artics on the 17 when it ain't rush hour.



SouthernSeptaRida215	Sep 28 2009, 02:14 PM Post #11
Southern Depot PTV Co-Leader & Correspondent. Posts: 369 Group: Members Member #2,708 Joined: July 5, 2009	If artics can't work for the 17, at least make 2 Flyers run on the same schedule. 2 buses every 3 minutes would work with me.



Tritransit Area	Sep 28 2009, 02:50 PM Post #12
Transit Enthusiast Posts: 2,242 Group: Admin Member #4 Joined: February 17, 2005	SouthernSeptaRida215 Sep 23 2009, 11:54 AM Tritransit Area Sep 23 2009, 10:02 AM SouthernSeptaRida215 Sep 23 2009, 08:19 AM Septa_kid Sep 23 2009, 05:22 AM SouthernSeptaRida215 Sep 23 2009, 03:53 AM Septa_kid Sep 22 2009, 10:23 PM the 17 and the C needs em BAAAD!! If da C needs them that much, you would think Midvale would put some of their artics on da C then they used to, but for some odd reason they stopped The reason why Midvale stopped Artics on da C is because they couldn't keep up with the schedule. And that's why the 17 can't use our current artics. The artics wouldn't hold to the schedule very well due to the acceleration issues and the huge amount of stops and stop signs. Something needs to be done, though. Perhaps throw more NABIs on the 17 for the time being. NABIs can swallow up a crowd quite well! As Van said I can understand why Artics on da C was cut because Broad Street is a Main-High Profile street with a traffic light on every street that cuts with it so it does make sense why Artic Service was cut on da C. But on the 17 its a whole different story. How? Well the 17 compared to the C has less traffics lights mainly because 19th & 20th isn't heavily traveled. Also Artics don't have to make hard turns. Maybe the only hard turn I see is when it hits Walnut-Locust SB. So what I think Septa should do is make Midvale send down 5 Artics to Southern to run them on the 17's morning and afternoon rush hour to see if they can keep up with the schedule. They should do this test for two weeks @ most. And have at least 2-3 Artics on the 17 when it ain't rush hour. Okay, there aren't traffic lights...but there are a heck of a lot of stop signs. Why must Midvale give up more artics? Have Comly give up a few of theirs. Goodness knows their artics, like 7114 which was so incredibly slow it's ridiculous, could use a little Southern TLC. Edited by Tritransit Area, Sep 28 2009, 03:04 PM.



SouthernSeptaRida215	Sep 28 2009, 03:27 PM Post #13
Southern Depot PTV Co-Leader & Correspondent. Posts: 369 Group: Members Member #2,708 Joined: July 5, 2009	Iight I have no problem with Comly but I just said Midvale because since the depots split routes it will probably be easier to do the swap



septafan	Sep 28 2009, 05:46 PM Post #14
Bus Driver and transit fan at Southern Depot Posts: 96 Group: Members Member #97 Joined: August 6, 2006	well in response to a post about maybe a artic on the 79 not needed at all the nabis handles that rt perfectly as for the 17 the artics can run as far a city hall then charter back to johnston as of now we have buses deadhead back to johnston via 95 from front st then run in service back to front thats why it has a 3min headway intown but 6min back south everyother bus charters back to southern for another northbound trip and only a few buses charter in the evening rush like my summer schedule i came off the 79 to the 17 and ran as a extra rush bus and another bus came off the G from columbus commons and ran as a extra on the 17 other buses do one to 1 1/2 trips before pulling in but artic will do some justice in the morning seeing that for some reason the people in south philly leave for work at the same exact time compared to other rt where the crowd apears everyother bus sometimes. the 17 gets hammered between 730 and up to 1100 i drive the 17 starting at 1000 on thurs morning and i get a standing load by the time i get to tasker im passing people up from wharton all the way to locust when people start getting off then i load up around 19th and mkt and the load stay on till about 8th even though it be a 33 in front of me people let it go by and take my bus i never understood why they do that Edited by septafan, Sep 28 2009, 05:47 PM.



septaman	Sep 28 2009, 05:56 PM Post #15
Advanced Transit Fan Posts: 503 Group: Members Member #390 Joined: March 13, 2007	SouthernSeptaRida215 Sep 23 2009, 08:19 AM Septa_kid Sep 23 2009, 05:22 AM SouthernSeptaRida215 Sep 23 2009, 03:53 AM Septa_kid Sep 22 2009, 10:23 PM the 17 and the C needs em BAAAD!! If da C needs them that much, you would think Midvale would put some of their artics on da C then they used to, but for some odd reason they stopped The reason why Midvale stopped Artics on da C is because they couldn't keep up with the schedule. I rode an artic on the C about 2 or 3 months ago.



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